frates. first up, hillary clinton gave as good as she got when peppered by challenging questions on benghazi this week. the reviews were she showed the graph tass and confidence, confidence a potential presidential candidate could. not hard to see the outlines. democrats outdid each other in ladding secretary clinton's remarkable four years but republicans seemed eager to rough up the woman some clearly want to keep out of the white house. and this was the exchange. that drew the most attention. between senator clinton, secretary clinton now and senator ron johnson of wisconsin. >> we were misled that there was supposedly protests and something sprang out of that and assaults sprang out of that. >> we had four dead americans because of a protest or was it because of guys out for a walk one night and decided they would kill some americans? what difference at this point does it make? chris: remarkably calm and i would say charming performance by the secretary. but there were moments like that where the republicans, especially people like ron johnson, a very severe

conservative, who really went after and she bit back. do you think that was a strong thing to do or show they could bait her? >> they obviously were baiting her and not inappropriate to express anger and frustration when you are angry and frustrated and the questions begs that. i think overall she performed extremely well. i don't think the republicans came after her did themselves any good. and for the most part, just for the record most republicans were respectful. i thought rand paul was out of line. if i were president, i would fire you, i think that was -- as we discussed on the border. chris: highly speck la active. >> highly: >> test being the waters. >> chuck, how did that play at the white house? did they sense that this was a good day for the secretary? i thought it was a great day. >> it was. for the longest time during the entire benghazi, the issues that were bubbling up during the campaign, there was from us trags at the white house that hillary clinton was in front. they wanted her up front and knew she was an effective character witness if you will

for the white house on this issue. and they were frustrated that she was for the longest time taking a back seat on this issue. so i think they believe it was a good day. here to me a sad part of that entire senate hearing. you have democrats going -- falling all over themselves to praise her and reps to beat her up. chris: some republicans. >> and the huge problem in north africa. we have a huge problem with weapons and militants and these new groups that are popping up everywhere. and what about the larger questions about the policy of overthrowing gaddafi? overthrowing mubarak? is this stuff working or or not? not a single question. chris: coming apart ever since world war ii. world war i we had a plan. the european plan that's coming apart. conservative "wall street journal"ist columnist peggy noonan was only complimentary. this is from her column on saturday. some conservatives are saying mrs. clinton looked unhinged, angry, in their dreams. she came across as human and indignant and emerged

untouched. that was my view, too. your thoughts. >> i watched all of it. and what i was struck by is the question that preceded that. chris: don't you have a job? >> that is my job. and really the most we have seen her unfiltered since she's been secretary of state. the question that preceded it was ron johnson, that famous wisconsin senator did you personally call any of the survivors and find out what their -- there were protests and put it directly and you saw the outburst. i had some democrats who told me they wish she had not used the phrase what difference does it make because that could be taken out of context and used against her. but they certainly agreed with the larger -- chris: and it was. chris, this whole question -- let's take a look at this ghastly front page of the "new york post." this is the kind of stuff that was add home nen and poisonous. -- ad hominem and also from rush limbaugh and also from rush hannity this almost wicked attack on her. personal attack. is that a preview of the

election or scare out of the election or what are they up to here? >> that's absolutely a preview of the election. and everybody plays a type here. we had a rehash of 2008 where the conservatives are looking for ability to cast clinton as the villain. as somebody who is angry, a woman unhinged. and i thought -- chris: aren't you surprised the poison is not out of that? >> no, not with clinton. and we saw from the secretary, she looked very much like she did when i covered her in 2008. where she was together, she has almost a file cabinet in her head. any question she would go through the file cabinet in her head and answers it. chris: this whole question about her and joe biden. because if there is going to be a field clearing as we say in politics by bill clinton and the others, it has to clear this fella here. he clearly seems to want to run. he has that strong debate performance in the fall against paul ryan. and he got that fiscal cliff agreement going lafment month. and then he took on the lead on the gun control proposal. so do both of them run, listen to what biden told our colleague, deploria borger, this week about -- gloria

borger, this week about running. >> i haven't made that judgment and hillary hasn't made that judgment but i can tell you what. everything that should be done over the next two years that i should be part of would have to be done whether i run or i don't run. chris: is that what he's like when you grab him at the white house and get ahead of him and talk -- >> that's who he is. the fact of the matter is he wants to run. he's right about this from what i understand in my reporting and knows beating hillary in a primary is near impossible and he's not going to drag out and have this big long primary fight. if hillary decides to run he'll look at it for a while and quietly back out. chris: how do you know that? >> just various people i talk to on this. he's clear eyed. yes, he wants to run but he knows beating her might be near impossible. if not absolutely impossible. chris: not the old fight between gene mccarthy and bobby

kennedy. >> they will not both stay in it. >> and here's the other thing. hillary may not run. i'm not con vebsed she -- convinced she runs. she could never explain why she wanted to be president in 2008. unless she really wants this and knows why she wants it, i won't be surprised if she doesn't run. chris: another fly in the ointment, the president made an unusual decision and it's hard to get him. he's going on 60 minutes with secretary clinton. a duet. that's rare. chris, your thoughts. >> my thought is -- chris: why are they going on together? >> a thank you to the clintons? it feels very much like i appreciate you taking the secretary of state job. and i'm going to elevate you here. chris: a lift up to the presidency? a lift up to the presidency by this presidency? over joe biden? >> i think it's a lift to say -- thank you for bill clinton for helping me get re-elected and i'm going to give you the best exit i can. chris: i am sensed the president has been giving joe biden help ever since the strong debate performance or maybe that was commonly gave

him that job. he got it. and saying -- do you have a sense the president is tipping the scale a little bit to joe? >> well, i do think the president appreciates what biden has been able to do because he feels -- fills a void the president cannot fill himself. and loyalty there. and at this point, why not lift them both up and have them both working on his -- chris: and don king of this fight? get them both to fight? kathleen, you've been quiet. >> i'm just practicing noninterruption. i'm with chuck. i think -- i would not be surprised if hillary does not run. as we all noted she is going to be 69 years old. chris: let's start with that. 69. joe biden is 74. >> yes. i think women have a better sense of priorities in life. than men do. and i think she may want tone joy her life and there's also this. who wants her to run more nanne anyone else? big bill and maybe that's her ultimate revenge. chris: you are unbelievable. meet me go around the table.

they're getting older and i am, too. 69, is it too old for a woman? is 74 too old for the other person to run? heeshes the question. the biggest question why, the one you mentioned. will hillary clinton run? >> my gut is always been no. and just -- i just think she ends up -- you know. >> kathleen. >> i think probably not. even though it's going to be a big struggle for her. because i do think she sees this as she is supposed to be the first woman president. and she is logically -- could easily do it, i think. chris: 12 years of work. >> 12 years. and not going to be a coronation. she will have to work for it. >> that's the hard part. the idea is intoxicating to people but when you really remember what's required, and how demanding it is. and if you thought that she was geffen a little rough treatment on the hill, unleash the doors. chris: it is 12 years. four years to run and eight years to serve. and the last person who couldn't lose was ted kennedy.

ted kennedy could not be beaten in 1979. your thoughts. >> i still think she does. she's knocking on the door as the first woman president and she did so much work four years ago to lay that groundwork. and she knows what it looks like. chris: she'll run? >> i think there's a good possibility. chris: you think she'll run? >> i do. chris: thank you. let's get to the -- we discussed in that interview we played. joe biden didn't say no. he wasn't cagey in the run-up to his first try back in 198 when -- 1988 when can dats wanted a young candidate after the reagan years. afl-cio. a required stop for democrats. >> i've been intention r mentioned as a potential presidential candidate and i've been occasionally written up. and i began to think, well, my lord, it must be true. i must be really moving. i've got a blue suit and a redge mentalal stripe -- regimental stripe tie and launched out on this campaign to be president. chris: biden's candor pails in comparison to bill clinton when

he first surfaced in that same year. clinton had a big spotlight, keynote at the convention when they nominated mike dukakis and clinton bombed and had to go on the carson show for damage control. but he still wasn't shy about his huge ambition. >> you are governor of arkansas until 1991? >> that's right. >> yeah. where were you looking beyond that politically or are you? >> depends on how i do on the show tonight. [applause] >> would you entertain a running for higher office? president? >> i would like to do it sometime. we decided that we would wait. until my daughter was old enough to kind of abuse me with the same facility you do. the political life. chris: talk about long shots. contrast that with how hillary clinton addressed the question with barbara walters several weeks ago. taped before she got

hospitalized for had a blood clot. >> i really don't believe that's something i will do again. >> your husband wants you to in 2016. what do you say to him? >> he wants me to do what i want to do. right now, i have no intention of running. chris: but there are many ways to say maybe or even it's possible. but not hillary. at least not now. and when we come back, the aggressive barack obama and the worried republicans. plus scoops and predictions

chris: welcome back. no less than "the new york times" has called president obama's inaugural address aggressive. we can all agree the president spoke clearly. >> preserving our individual freedom ultimately requires collective action. for we, the people, understand that our country cannot succeed

when a shrinking few do very well in a growing many barely make it. chris: this speech has taken a week to gel. and the geling has suggesting that the republicans have a choice. either they go along with the president on some things, try to improve on immigration, on guns, hit their mark on these bills, or they stand back and play protest politics. what are they going to do? >> i found an interesting poll, "the wall street journal" and he made it seem maybe we should try to make legislation better. try to have some input on things. i think there's still a split among republicans how much to do that. i know there are a lot of conservative republicans who sit there and say we walked away from health care, what a mistake. it's now the law of the land and we have no way of influencing this legislation. and so there is a split among legislative conservatives and the fire and brimstone. chris: it seems a little less feeling about scorched earth. there are right ways to do progressive things. and there are wrong ways. >> and there are right ways to do things. but chuck's exactly right. the party is still very split.

i think they're going to dig in and fight. it's going to be issue to issue and vary depending on what the subject is. i don't think anybody thinks that john boehner is going to let the country go off the fiscal cliff. he's not going to hurt the economy. he's not going to allow that to happen. chris: is he in control? >> that's the big question. chris: "national journal." a lot of reporting now that what's going to happen the republicans are going to go with -- they're going to let defense cuts take effect because that means a lot of the domestic cuts take effect which is conservativism and getting their way. also possibly hurting the economy. although that's a conspiratorial notion on my part. what are the republicans going to do? big issue coming up. >> we reported this week that they're going -- the moving toward letting those across the board cuts go in and this is the best shot we have at it. budget control. it's going to become the law. march 1. so there's no debate about that. and to undo them, democrats are demanding tax increases. and republicans are saying no

way. chris: an expert on capitol hill. kelly. what do you think -- when you go around and just chat with people, do you sense that there is this cracking of ice that maybe we should have a hand in legislation and not just say no? >> i think there's less focus on what the obama politics of the moment or his legacy. and it's beginning to creep, at least with some people, about what story they will be able to tell for the next election of what they did. they recognize that the president has had a lot of capital. he will use it. but for them, and it's not -- we talked about, they're split but there are some people saying thousand can we influence things? -- saying how can we influence things? chris: why don't they start passing bills in the house on background checks? >> more willingness to move forward on immigration than anything that hags the word gun in it. chris: thank you. when we come back, scoops and predictions right from t

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chris: welcome back. chuck todd, tell me something i don't know. >> sacks by chambliss retiring. -- saxby chambliss retiring. his best friend in the house, we see these old guards. this will be john boehner last -- >> why are they quitting? >> they are frustrated. they're frustrated at where their party is headed and they can't win over the conservatives and they're frustrated that they can't work with the president. they're caught in a vise.

and legislative conservatives. they're not moderates. these guys are not moderates and they get punished for legislating. that's why not sacks by -- why saxby -- why john boner is leaving. -- john boehner is leaving. >> not much will happen with immigration. the -- chris: are you prodding them? i think it is a democratic issue that helps them. >> another democratic issue is guns. and how to proceed. and one of the things that they're looking at is to try to have a piece on trafficking. to do a law enforcement piece. it's not about a right to have a gun on anything like that. it's about people who misuse them. so that's one of the ways they're going to try to get something done more quickly. and they think they can get some -- chris: who is the knowing goik to like it? always a sensitive issue. they believe they can get

republicans to come along. >> the vote in the senate on the debt limit this week. you're going to see for the first time what new republican senators are going to take a very rightward governing position. take cruz a harvard guy. has establishment as you get. but with the tea party favorite, saying i'm going to vote against that. watch and find out which republicans are going to vote against a house-passed debt limit. short term fix. and you have a very good road map for these other votes that are going to be happening. and where this -- chris: which -- >> he wants to continue to keep his tea party bona fides. chris: when we come back the big question of the week. now that we have seen the second inaugural address k. barack obama be the most transformative president since reagan? be right back. >> "the chris matthews show" is brought to you by charles schwab. let's talk about giving your schwab. let's talk about giving your portfolio a

chris: welcome back.

candidate barack obama offended the clintons during the 2008 primaries with this interview in reno. >> i think ronald reagan changed the trajectory of america in a way that richard nixon did not. and in a way that bill clinton did not. chris: which brings us to this week's big question. can barack obama become a transformative president even if republicans go all out to stop him? chuck todd. >> here's how it works. he only -- only if he gets a third term. you have to break -- to transform, to move a country from senator right -- from center right to center left. a more conservative democratic party. that's when you know success -- chris: he's got to get one of these two people elected. >> that's right. >> i don't think that the republicans have the power to make him anything but transformational.

he is transformational by virtue of the fact that he is in the white house for a second term as the first african-american. that's transformational and he has an opportunity to replace one. conservative justices on the court, social issues, liberal social issues are entrenched for as far as we can see. chris: would hillary take the court issue if it were appointed to it? >> i should imagine so. that's interesting. i think that's great analysis. and i think it depends on the lenz you look at. for the person who doesn't live and breathe politics he already is transformational and will be. and for people who are assessing the impact of policy, we have to see. chris: i read "national journal." you guys keep score. if you don't do immigration and -- like reagan did at the end and make a deal with gorbachev and don't do things that appear in what we used to call the encyclopedia britannica you aren't transformative. >> he's got health care but he needs immigration and needs another big policy issue.

and he needs republicans to come along to do it with him. if they want to stop him they can. i think the public wants him to do something. chris: thanks to a great roundtable. chuck todd. kathleen parker. kelly o'donnell. and chris frates. that's the show. thanks for watching. see you back here next week.

we are "on the money." i'm maria bartiromo. coming to you this week from davos, switzerland, where the world's economic forum is taking place. the mood of davos, where will

the global economy go next and what will it mean to your portfolio as the u.s. stock market sets a new five-year high. i'll have any candid conversation with outspoken jpmorgan chase ceo jamie dimon. we'll talk real estate, banking, his pay cut. >> we had run terrible year. and she's called the oprah of china. remarkable entrepreneur who runs a media empire and reaches more than 200 million people a month. "on the money" begins right now. this is america's number one financial news program, "on the money." now, maria bartiromo. >> this is what's making news as we head into a new week "on the money." washington has a new watchdog for wall street. president obama has nominated mary jo white the head of securities and exchange commission. white is a former prosecutor with a reputation for toughness. she will replace mary schapiro